Lessons in Failure: "You Be You" — Feedback, and Authentic Leadership with Denise Perlman

Añadido: 2026-06-10

[00:00:05]Hi everyone, I'm Mitch Dunford, chief marketing officer with the Risk and Insurance Education Alliance, and welcome to Lessons in Failure, a series about the messy and very human side of success and failure in the risk and insurance industry and I guess even in in life.

[00:00:26]>> Absolutely. And I'm Will Holden, CEO of the Alliance. Glad to be here today with the lovely colleague Mitch Dumper.

[00:00:33]>> Um and and I'm I'm really excited about our guest today. I really I've been looking forward to it.

[00:00:38]>> It took a lot to get her here, so I'm excited to finally talk to her.

[00:00:43]>> Before we introduce our guest, Denise, um Will, I have a quick question.

[00:00:50]Did you or did you not break out your bucket hat this weekend? But wait, wait a minute. For those of you who don't know, on our original episode, William and I asked our wives to share some of our most annoying habits, and Janna broke the news to the world that William, the CEO of the Alliance, wears a bucket hat like every weekend. Did you or did you not break that out this week?

[00:01:20]>> I did. My daughter had a track meet. I wore it to the track meet. I think I was one of two people that I saw with a bucket hat. And listen, I have to wear the bucket hat to any high school events that my daughter is at because it like makes my traps look a lot bigger. So, it makes me look much more intimidating with the bucket hat on than without the bucket hat.

[00:01:39]>> Matt, do your thing. I think we have a There it is. There's the Oh my. And you're you're a Texan. You're born Texan. I'm an adopted Texan. I wear a cowboy hat. And you wear >> Yeah. No, I'm not a cowboy. I'm not I don't want to be a cowboy. I'm not a cowboy. It would be totally fake. So, I choose the bucket hat because I want to protect the skin and make my traps look a little bigger.

[00:02:03]>> All right. Well, why don't we go we'll revisit the bucket hat later.

[00:02:08]>> So, listen. It's funny you remember this hat and you constantly bring this up now, but you can't seem to remember to fold the laundry when you take it out of the dryer is what your wife told us, I believe.

[00:02:21]>> Okay. I I want it on record that the truth is I fold the laundry the only time. There is only one thing that I refuse to fold and that is and I won't even try to learn it that are fitted sheet.

[00:02:36]So I just don't even I just bought them up and put them in the corner.

[00:02:40]>> I mean I think her precise words when she sent in her answers were for the love of God for everything holy and God fold the laundry when you take it out of the dryer. That's what I remember at least.

[00:02:51]But that's what we're not here to talk about that to talk about all your shortcomings because that would take much longer than we've allocated for this podcast. But today we have our guest and today our guest is Denise Pearlman CIC CEO of Middle Market for North America at AON. Yes, the AON. But before we get into all the failures, because this is a podcast on failures, let's just talk about Denise's amazingly successful career just for a minute. So, she starts off at Markell um where she starts, I believe, her her industry experience and her first job in insurance. She's a senior marketing associate. She's there for around 10 years holding multiple roles, obviously extending. Uh, she leaves Markell as the senior director of corporate business development. And then Mitch, she goes to a little agency, you've probably never heard of them, called Marshia McClendon Agency. Just a simple small multi-billion dollar agency that she goes and then she becomes president like like the president of National Business Insurance, which is awesome. Insane.

[00:03:59]Obviously completely qualified to do that. And then about a year ago, she moves to another little small agency you probably never heard of, which is AON.

[00:04:07]Another multi-billion dollar agency. And her current role is CEO. Yes. CEO of all of Middle Market for AO. I mean, that's amazing. That is amazing. But thankfully for you and I, Mitch, today is not about titles. It's not about all the great successes. Today is about the moments that didn't go as planned and what they taught her and how they helped her be successful. So Denise, welcome to Lessons in Failure. And are you nervous at all?

[00:04:37]>> I'm a little nervous and thanks for the um for the introduction. I've never had anyone um introduce me like that. So thank you. Well, this will be a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to it.

[00:04:48]>> Do you wear a bucket hat? I don't wear a bucket hat, but I like a bucket hat and I love the photo. And uh my husband wears a bucket hat when we go on vacation.

[00:05:00]>> Obviously an amazing guy, extremely successful in everything he does, I am sure.

[00:05:08]>> And we're going to talk about your husband. It's it's it's it's very nice that you mentioned him because we're going to talk about him. He has some answers to some questions. So we're excited to get here.

[00:05:17]>> Perfect. So Denise, when people hear what you do, they obviously see the successes that you've had. Um they tend to fill in the blanks on who you are and they feel like maybe they know you or they judge you for whatever reasons. But what's one thing um about you that you absolutely don't feel like fits the successful seuite executive stereotype?

[00:05:42]>> Wow. Um well I would think like some common stereotypes about a successful seauite exec. I think you know I think about like a visionary big picture thinker hyperconfident um very decisive always available. Um I think sometimes like personal life and work life balance are seen as secondary sometimes because you know um I think there's this perception that they work hard work harder work harder. Um, I totally work hard, but I would say, um, personal life, um, that balance is super important to me and anyone that works for me or works with me knows that. Um, I'm very, um, into my family. Um, I have a almost 11year-old daughter. Um, my husband's super supportive. Um, he's a registered nurse. Um, I'm very close with my family um, that we all live in Richmond, Virginia. I'm an identical twins. My twin sister is, you know, 10 minutes. She lives 10 minutes for me.

[00:06:45]So, um I work hard. Absolutely. And that's gotten me to where I am. But I think um making that time with my personal life, um is super important.

[00:06:56]>> Love that. So, you've been able to find the balance.

[00:07:00]>> Yeah, I try to.

[00:07:02]>> Yeah, it's hard.

[00:07:05]>> It is hard. Um, can you share a moment in your career where you made a decision or something happened where you said, "Wow, I really messed that up and I won't approach things the same way uh in the future." Can have you ever had a moment like that in your career?

[00:07:27]>> I actually, yes, I can think of a few.

[00:07:31]Um, but you know, when you asked me about joining you on this podcast, I was super excited because I think I've become I know I've become a better leader because of some of the mishaps that I've had in my career. So, yeah, I think that it's it's definitely developed me as a leader. I will say, you know, to answer your question, I remember a time I was leading a national initiative. Um, and it was kind of a project to consolidate business. Um, I needed to have kind of buyin from the regional leadership.

[00:08:08]And instead of getting their full input of what success looks like, I put hard, really unachievable goals out there. And um, and I did that fast. I wanted to reach a goal and I learned a lesson that it was very um anti-culture um to that organization and it taught me a lesson that I needed to take a pause um adjust um get feedback really listen like actively listen and um and I I remember that moment and I've learned a lot from that. um it really changed I feel like how I've become a leader and um and in the end we ended up um you know reaching our goal our new goal but I learned very early on like you've got to take time to really do things the right way >> in your career when you've had those moments where you feel like you messed things up like oh my gosh I need to do this different how did it make you feel personally in the moment when you recognized the failure and do you how did you how did you feel and how did you get past any negative you know self-doubt or feelings that you have?

[00:09:27]>> Yeah. I mean I I remember I I felt like crap, you know. I I remember I I I was so mad that we you know weren't able to um you know meet this deadline that we set and this goal. But looking back, I'm really glad that that happened because it taught me a big lesson to take the time and do things the right way. Um and make sure you know you check all your boxes. But I I do know in that moment, you know, I think anyone has a moment where they've failed um you know, it doesn't feel good. Um but you've got to learn from those mistakes and and um I think that's what makes people better in their job.

[00:10:12]>> You just keep going, keep trying.

[00:10:14]>> Just keep going. Yeah. You got to keep going. You know, it's a new day.

[00:10:17]>> Yeah.

[00:10:18]>> You know, >> did it did it change the way you saw yourself, Denise? Like I know, you know, you you roll something out, you're like, "We're going to make these deadlines.

[00:10:29]It's going to happen. I'm going to help it happen." And you're like, "I'm doing the right thing and everything's set up and you know, I'm going to get a great result out of this." But that failure, did it make you really just self-reflect and say, "Hey, maybe I thought I was one way, but I really am this other way or some other thought come into your mind."

[00:10:48]>> You know, it taught me a huge lesson in leadership. It taught me how to become and this is the leader I am today and I've grown from this. Um but it taught me to become a more servant leader. Um you know putting people and purpose before hey we're going to do this before power and ego. You know I I think I've gotten better at actively listening seeking input from others asking questions like what's working not working. You know what I what I did find out was we tried to do something like this before and it didn't work and I didn't know that. And had I asked I would have figured out what didn't work in the past and I could have made adjustments. So you know understanding people's perspectives it's helped me do that more often. Um and responding to you know those you know that feedback.

[00:11:40]Um and I think it's brought a lot of awareness knowing my own strengths. Um and using awareness to adjust behavior when I need to.

[00:11:50]>> Absolutely. Yep. And you know, you mentioned servant leadership. What what would you say was sort of the hardest part to accept at that time to become whatever leader you thought you were there to now being a servant leader?

[00:12:03]What did you need to accept and what was that hardest thing for you?

[00:12:08]>> Um I think I was hearing things that I didn't want to hear, you know. Um oh, we've tried to do this before. It's not going to work.

[00:12:15]And you know, I didn't I didn't want to hear that because I had a goal that I was, you know, instructed to come in and and do this project. And but what what I think it turned around to be good was I dug really deep with people. Okay. Well, tell me why it hasn't worked. Like, you know, what's it really about? Like like really digging deep. And I I think I've gotten better at my listening skills. um and and surrounding myself actually with people that challenge me. You know, I don't I today when I build a team, like a workshop or a a working group, I purposely put people on a team that I know will be um not negative, but will challenge me because I think that it's good to hear that and hear perspectives from people um from all sides.

[00:13:11]And and how do you introduce that freedom inside your team, the culture where people feel like they can push back on the CEO?

[00:13:20]>> Yeah. I I mean, I think it all comes back from being approachable, being like I've you know, I was just visiting our West Coast offices last week and I asked everyone in the room, I said, "I'm here to listen. I'm not here to stand up and present. I want to hear from you. So I, you know, I gave a couple, you know, moments of like, these are things that we're working on, but I'd love your feedback. And I asked everyone in the room, if you could have one thing that would make your job better, what would it be? And people opened up. They said, well, if we had this or if we had that.

[00:14:00]And after that meeting, I walked to the the area where this group was sitting doing their work, and I said, "If you have some time, I'd love to sit down and just I'm a visual learner. Observe what you talked about in that meeting room, and I'd like to see it. Um, that's how I learn." And I think that they really appreciated that that I that I took that time to do that. And because I did that, it made them feel that they could push back on me in a leadership role and really give me that feedback because I I genuinely care to learn. Um, and that's fun for me. I I actually really enjoy that.

[00:14:40]>> Love that. All right. Well, we contacted somebody that knows you best and you mentioned this, your husband Ben, and he was terrific. And we we asked Ben to answer three questions about you. Number one, what are what your biggest weakness?

[00:15:00]Number two, what are your three most annoying habits?

[00:15:06]>> Only three.

[00:15:08]>> He only provided three. Yeah, but they're good. They're good ones.

[00:15:14]>> And the last question was, what does Ben admire most about you? So, here we go with Ben's answer. All right. You ready?

[00:15:24]>> I'm ready. Um, I will say my husband, I know you all contacted him, but he wouldn't tell me his answer, so I have no idea what >> That's perfect. That makes it even better.

[00:15:38]>> All right. So, the answer, Ben's answer to your biggest weakness, and I'll read exactly what he wrote. quote and what's what's funny is this is exactly the same answer John Aole gave about William this was his answer she wants to help everyone even if she can't help them she will take the time to find the person that can she has such a great heart and cares for everyone that it has a tendency to clog up That that was his answer to your biggest weakness is that you're like you just mentioned a minute ago on this recent business trip, you really care about people and it has a tendency to eat up your time.

[00:16:30]>> Yeah.

[00:16:30]>> Is that true?

[00:16:32]>> Yes. Yeah. I I do think that um you know having strong people on your team that can help with you know um I can I can give some of that workload and have them help me with doing some of those things.

[00:16:49]But absolutely I I I see that as I do want to I do want to help everybody, you know. Um I've worked hard to say no sometimes where you know you can't always be yes.

[00:17:03]So Denise, I think that's super sweet that your husband said that, but let's talk about the real world aspect of this. So is this really just one of these weaknesses that's really a strength? Like in an interview when you say Canada, what's my greatest weakness?

[00:17:15]Well, I just work way too hard. So what like how is this really a in your mind?

[00:17:21]>> I think I I said earlier like um you can't be everywhere all the time, you know, you just can't. And you know, sometimes in order to build a successful strategy, you know, in my view, it's not Denise's strategy, it's the firm strategy, me getting feedback from people. And at AON, I've been very lucky. I mean, people have been at AON a really long time. So there's great history and knowledge and you know so much to learn from but I think that you know you have to prioritize. So that's helped me really, I think, become a better leader from taking it all in, being a better listener, um, but knowing I can't do it all and taking those things that I've heard the most probably and making them into common themes and then going after the things that are probably top of the list, I would say.

[00:18:20]>> All right, you ready for your three most annoying habits?

[00:18:24]>> I can't.

[00:18:24]>> Here we go. Yeah.

[00:18:27]>> Number one. All right. Here we go. When, this is Ben quote. When we are figuring out dinner or what show to watch at night, you see what's coming. I could tell. She will give lots of suggestions, but never wants to make the actual decision. She just says, "I don't care."

[00:18:47]And then gets frustrated at me when I say, "I don't care either." It's a fun banter that happens a lot, but it's annoying. I guess she makes I guess she makes so many decisions at work, she doesn't want to make them when work is over. Is that is all that true? That's probably true. Um maybe that's why I do it. No, I I would say, you know, I uh I give, hey, these are the top three shows we could watch. Now you pick. So I've narrowed it.

[00:19:18]>> You give options. Good. I have options, right?

[00:19:22]>> That is funny. That happened. That actually happened last night, >> of course.

[00:19:29]All right. Number two, quote, Denise Bugs, as we call it in the family. She is a hypochondric who is always worried about people being sick.

[00:19:43]hands are being washed and Pel is being squeezed out at record levels in our house just to keep her blood blood pressure down. She's always thinking what can go wrong in every moment.

[00:19:57]However, this is also what makes her amazing at insurance and her job. So, do you have a a bottle of Pel on your desk right now?

[00:20:07]>> Actually, I It's funny. That would be really funny if I did. I don't right now. Um, but I sent my daughter to school with she has a little burell in her backpack.

[00:20:20]Um, >> yeah, you know, no one likes to be sick.

[00:20:23]Um, I think it's rude if people go to the gym in their coffin like go home.

[00:20:28]>> Of course, >> we have the ability to work virtually.

[00:20:31]So, I think people have to do that more.

[00:20:34]Um, I will say I do bug. I'm always and this is what's in my blood. I've been in the insurance industry. It's my 25th year and I am constantly identifying risks like things that could go wrong.

[00:20:50]It's in my blood. I'm a safety man.

[00:20:52]>> That's what my daughter says. So >> yeah, I I but sometimes you know um it's nice to take that hat off when I'm on vacation. I don't do that. Um but yeah, that is true. I um but I you know my husband's a nurse I mentioned so we uh we have a good ying and yang thing and that works.

[00:21:13]>> I totally relate. I'm a retired cop so I'm always thinking like four steps ahead if there's danger out there. So I I I totally relate. All right. Number three. And this is my favorite of all three.

[00:21:25]>> Quote.

[00:21:27]>> She always wants to have buffalo dip in wine every night. And I'm trying to lose weight here.

[00:21:40]>> And and the reason I love this is like we just literally heard how Denise wants to help everyone. And now we hear she won't even sacrifice Buffalo dip and wine for her husband, the love of her life to help him reach his goal. Like what's happening? You know, we eat it with celery and pepper, so it's kind of healthy, but and red wine, so it's good for the heart.

[00:22:02]>> And you know, I just told him when he goes to the gym, he just has to work out that much harder to work it off, right?

[00:22:09]So the evenings when I am home and not traveling, like that's our time. And we're we're very like we tell our daughter that that's our time. That's mommy daddy time. And um it's special time because it's, you know, we we watch a show together. we catch up on the day.

[00:22:25]Um, and yes, wine and cheese. Who could say no to that?

[00:22:30]I don't take no for an answer usually.

[00:22:36]>> Said that.

[00:22:37]>> Oh my gosh. that.

[00:22:41]>> So when you hear when you hear all those, which ones have you actually had to work on because someone maybe you respected or obviously your husband pulled you aside um and said this is something that you know I think you need to work on any of those or any other ones that may come to mind that we didn't touch on?

[00:22:58]>> Yes. I um you know sometimes my I don't take no for an answer. I need to be a little that works in business. Sometimes that doesn't always work at home. So, I get that. Um, you know, I sometimes can be a little defensive.

[00:23:12]Um, so, you know, taking feedback. Don't argue with feedback. I've been trying to be better about taking it all in. But I I mentioned this earlier with I build this like workg groupoups that I have. I surround myself with people that challenge me.

[00:23:28]>> Um, don't I don't surround myself with yes people. Um, you know, in fact, I watch the news from all different sources and they all say different things, but I do that on purpose because I think it it it gives you a different perspective. Um, and then yeah, just just being better at listening, I would say. Um, not interrupting. I can do that sometimes when I something I really want to say and jump in. So yeah, I I think all of those things, those bad habits, I've been trying to be better at at managing and fixing.

[00:24:06]>> So the the last question I asked Ben was um what does he admire most about you?

[00:24:14]And this is what he said. Denise is the hardest >> Denise is the hardest working, biggest hearted, most caring, honest, and genuine person I have ever met.

[00:24:27]What you see is what you get. I always tell her, you be you because that is an amazing person who will always succeed because of those traits.

[00:24:40]>> That was really cool.

[00:24:42]>> Yeah, he's so >> When people give you compliments >> or praise you, is it sometimes hard for you to believe it? Do you h Do you have self-doubt?

[00:24:57]>> Yeah.

[00:24:57]>> And do you think self-doubt is common?

[00:25:01]>> Oh, totally. Yeah. I absolutely. I I have self-doubt. I um you know, I love that he said, "You be you." I text him sometimes if I'm out of town before I'm about to walk into a big meeting or presentation or get on stage or something and and um you know of course you know I get nervous and doubt myself and you know doubt my confidence and he'll write back it's just three words capital U capital B and capital U you be you and and then I'm like okay like you know so I that's what I do and I don't know if it's always if it always works or if it was always right, but I um you know, just be myself, be authentic. I think if you're not your true self, that shines right through. People see that and um I think that that's really important to just, you know, um but yeah, hearing hearing things like that, you know, I know my husband will say, I tell you that all the time, you know, but if someone else tells you that, it's like it's the first time you've heard that. Yeah.

[00:26:06]>> And and I think it is like, you know, >> I I see my husband all the time and, you know, and I I very much appreciate what he says, but sometimes when you hear it from people you wouldn't expect, um I think that that you know is um it just it means things even more, too. So, it's really nice.

[00:26:29]>> When Ben sent me the email with the answers to these questions, he actually used the capital letters. You be you.

[00:26:37]>> For a second, I had to Hey, what is that? What is he trying to say here?

[00:26:41]>> That's what I think. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:26:43]>> What a cool t-shirt. I mean, >> we I mean, you be you. There's a lot of power in it.

[00:26:50]>> Yeah. Yeah. And we tell our daughter that, too. Like, she is a big >> Yes.

[00:26:55]>> thing at school today. And we just tell her like, "You be you." We say, "We're team Pearlman. We've all got each other's backs." And um I've been blessed to have the support through really hard, you know, decisions I've had to make at work and failures that I've had. You know, sometimes someone will say, "How was that presentation?" I'm like, "I I blocked.

[00:27:18]It wasn't I wasn't at my best." You know, I think everyone has those moments, but >> then the next time, you know, I'm going to be even better. Um because I I want to like I want to do well and I want my daughter to see that too.

[00:27:37]>> Absolutely. So Denise, real fast, you know, we talked about self-doubt, but what what do you feel like healthy self-doubt looks like versus the kind of self-doubt that can hold you back?

[00:27:47]>> Yeah. Um I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, like reminding myself of my values, my boundaries, um, you know, um, when people tell me the truth about things, sometimes it's stuff I don't want to hear, but it calls out blind spots for me, and I think that that has helped me overcome some of my self-doubt a little bit. So, I would probably that's that's what I'm thinking.

[00:28:20]Absolutely. And you know, there's been so many studies about like the the number one choice you can make in your life is who your spouse or significant other is. And and how do you feel like that choice for you has kept you grounded?

[00:28:34]>> Yeah. I mean, it's this it's this tough love, you know, like sometimes, hey, I'm going to tell you things you don't want to hear. Um and, you know, reminding me to be me, you know. Um, but even giving myself like life outside of work, you know. Um, my family owns and operates a local garden center we've had for 34 years. And I still sometimes when I'm in town go there on the weekends and help out and and that keeps me grounded and keeps me like, you know, if I'm having a day, my father says to me, you can always sell flowers. And I'm like, you know, right, you know, and that's always my like and I think it keeps me grounded through my failure. But, um, always staying connected to the front line is really important for me, you know, as I mentioned when I was out west and I spent time with the teams. I do that all the time. I can't do it all the time, but I I like to do that. I like to get out um I'm, you know, on a road show and see our customers, hear what the teams have to say, hear real stories. you know, why do we win? It's not only why do we win, but I think sometimes it's even more important why do we lose and figuring out the real story and like, you know, that's just as important to make adjustments for how we can be better. So, um, yeah, I I think those kinds of things keep me grounded.

[00:29:57]>> Well said.

[00:30:00]All right, this last section is what we call our rapid fire. So, I've got a series of questions that I'm going to ask you.

[00:30:07]This first one we need like a one sentence response to this question. What is the biggest misconception about success?

[00:30:19]>> Oh gosh. Um I would say success the biggest misconception is success looks the same for everyone because in reality it doesn't. I mean money, title, they might not fit people's values or what's successful to them. So you can be successful by other things. So I would say that it's not the same.

[00:30:43]>> You be you, right?

[00:30:44]>> You be you. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:30:46]>> I am going to get a t-shirt that says that >> and maybe bucket hat. Maybe bucket hat.

[00:30:55]>> If you get a bucket hat, send me one.

[00:30:57]I'll I'll reimburse you, Denise. Please send me one.

[00:30:59]>> Be you all you want. Just don't wear the There you go. There's the >> Exactly.

[00:31:06]>> All right. Another one sentence uh answer. What is your favorite failure?

[00:31:13]It could be a historical failure or a personal failure. What's your favorite?

[00:31:19]>> Oh gosh. I I have a couple. I um I I'll just share two. um a promotion I didn't get that I thought I deserved, but in a way I'm glad I didn't get it because, you know, I ended up taking a different role and helped me in my career. So, um I failed my CPCO first and second uh courses, but you know what? You know what I did instead?

[00:31:48]Um I got my MBA instead. Um an executive MBA. I pivoted and got my MBA instead.

[00:31:55]So, um, yeah, I think all things like that happen for a reason.

[00:32:00]>> Love that.

[00:32:02]All right, last question. One word response. What describes your leaders?

[00:32:06]What word describes your leadership journey?

[00:32:14]>> Resilient.

[00:32:16]>> Resilient.

[00:32:18]>> Say that.

[00:32:18]>> Well said.

[00:32:20]Yeah.

[00:32:21]>> Love that.

[00:32:25]Great job. Last thing we like to ask, Denise, I promise this is the actual last thing. Um, do you have a personal mantra or principle that you return to when things get really really I go back, not to be repetitive, but I'll go back to my just be yourself like you be you and just taking things all in. ask questions, get feedback, you know, just hear from people. I think um that helps people be a better better leader and better in their role and just, you know, that shows that shines through and good leaders good leaders that I've been surrounded with.

[00:33:07]>> Absolutely. Denise, thank you so much for sharing yourself with us today and being honest and, >> you know, it means so much to us and the industry to hear the truth about success and failure in our industry and in our lives. And that's what this podcast is all about. We all have a such a great blessing to work in this industry. There are so much good being done. There are so many wonderful people in the industry. So, thank you very much for sharing yourself, sharing Ben with us.

[00:33:43]Shout out to Ben. Yeah, >> that was >> shout out to Ben.

[00:33:49]>> Thank you, Ben.

[00:33:50]>> And give him a break on the Buffalo dip and wine.

[00:33:55]I won't.

[00:34:01]>> You know, every episode of this podcast is about the cracks in um the journey of life and business that trip us up and this incredible industry that we work in. And our goal is not to glorify the failures, but to learn from it. So, if you've ever failed, and that's all of us, you're in the right place. So, subscribe to our podcast on YouTube.

[00:34:27]Share it with others because we're just getting started. From all of us at the alliance, from Will and I, Mac, our entire team here, thanks for listening and remember to always fail forward.

[00:34:42]Until next time, thank you so much for listening.