DLC Bookclub - SHADOW OF THE TORTURER - w/ Special Guest Drew McCaffrey from Inking Out Load

Indexed: 2026-05-21

[00:00:00]Hello there book club lovers. Welcome to another episode. It's going to be a fun one. I'm Jeff Canannada here with Lana Bashinsky. Hello Lana.

[00:00:07]>> Hello and good morning. I am excited to be here today. Jeff Canannada.

[00:00:12]>> Yeah, it's going to be fun. We, you know, after we finish reading a book, we usually like to invite the author on to discuss it. Uh, unfortunately, Gene Wolf is no longer with us, but we are undeterred. We We got ourselves an author. uh joining us to talk about Shadow of the Torturer, author of such books as The Aquaman's Gem and Cold Ruin in Cantamemir. In addition to writing stories, he hosts the Inking Out Loud podcast, a book review podcast, and plays professional inline hockey, which we may have to talk about that a little bit, too. Please welcome Drew McCaffrey to the show. Hey, Drew.

[00:00:53]>> Hey, Jeff. Uh, thanks for having me on.

[00:00:55]Looking forward to this. Yeah, we're so excited to have you on. Uh I have to thank our listener, Andrew, who uh pointed us in your direction. We put the call out. We said, you know, who should we have on to talk about Shadow of the Torture? Andrew wrote in and said, "You got to have Drew McAffrey on." And uh so delighted to have you.

[00:01:13]I found out, by the way, uh looking at your most recent episode, which is sponsored by the Bricks and Mini Fig store that is right down the street from me, >> that we are neighbors.

[00:01:29]>> Yes, we are.

[00:01:31]>> Really?

[00:01:31]>> Yeah. We live He lives in Fort Collins, Colorado, which is right down the highway from where I live in Centennial.

[00:01:38]>> Wow. Oh, >> and his show is sponsored by a store that's literally right down the street from where I live. It's crazy.

[00:01:44]>> Oh, man. That's so exciting. Well, uh I always think that podcast DLC main DLC otherwise, you know, it feels like a little family reunion. We got a neighborhood reunion here today and that feels great.

[00:01:57]>> That's right.

[00:01:58]>> I like that.

[00:01:59]>> Also, it looks like based on your personal website, do you have a cat named Searian? I do have a cat named Samarian.

[00:02:09]>> Oh, so clearly we got the right person on to talk about Shadow of the Tor. Tell us about how that happened.

[00:02:16]>> Yeah. Uh, well, I'm a big black cat guy and we we adopted him from the local shelter here in Fort Collins. And right away he was like way too smart for his own good and was just a a total punk. So I was like, he's he's got a black coat.

[00:02:33]He's clearly an apprentice torturer and he thinks he rules the Commonwealth.

[00:02:38]It's clearly Samaran.

[00:02:41]>> That's amazing.

[00:02:42]>> Yeah. Death by a thousand tiny kitty cat scratches.

[00:02:47]>> I have the scars.

[00:02:48]>> Yeah.

[00:02:49]>> The blacker than black coat. I love it.

[00:02:51]>> Um so how did you Go ahead, Lana. You you go.

[00:02:55]>> Uh well, one of the things that uh I'm eager to sort of start with before we dive into Shadow of the Torture itself is could you give us a taste of your sensibilities? You are an author. You've obviously read a ton of sci-fi and fantasy. What are some of your favorite books?

[00:03:09]>> Uh, yeah. So, I I kind of grew up with The Wheel of Time. That is, you know, a a major. And of course, Searian is opening the door in the middle of recording.

[00:03:22]>> Talking about me, everybody.

[00:03:23]>> Yeah. How very like him.

[00:03:28]Um, yeah, I grew up with the Wheel of Time. So, I I, you know, was inspired to start writing because of epic fantasy, but, uh, in my adult life, obviously, I've grown to love Gene Wolf.

[00:03:42]I mean, he doesn't inspire me to write so much as make me feel like I'm terrible at writing, but I still love him.

[00:03:48]>> I feel that.

[00:03:50]>> And then my favorite series of all time is The Acts of Cain by Matthew Woodring Stover. I'm I'm not sure if either of you are familiar with it or with him. Uh he's most commonly known as the guy who wrote the novelization of Revenge of the Sith.

[00:04:07]>> It is hilariously better than the movie.

[00:04:10]Uh like it it's pretty widely regarded as like one of if not the best Star Wars book ever written. And >> most people who say it's not the best will point to one of Stove's other Star Wars books. Uh he wrote a Mace Wu Clone Wars novel called Shatterpoint that's basically uh Heart of Darkness in Star Wars. Uh he he's just a ridiculously talented writer. So >> very cool.

[00:04:39]>> And so how did you get to uh Shadow of the Torture or The Books of the New Sun?

[00:04:44]Did did you was that something that happened because of Inking Out Loud or had were you familiar with it before?

[00:04:50]How would what's your relationship with that work?

[00:04:53]>> No. Uh it was actually a a local friend of mine here who's uh a writer, an archaeology writer, which does make a little bit of sense in retrospect, but there was one night we were just, you know, out having beers and chatting books and he was like, "You're a big fantasy guy. Have you read Gan Wolf?"

[00:05:10]And I said, "No." and he pointed me toward Book of the New Sun and uh pretty much the rest was history there because I tore through all four of them in about a month and then was in like a month of literary coma totally overwhelmed. Uh couldn't read anything else, couldn't write anything else. I was just like what what just happened to me?

[00:05:32]>> Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, yeah, I that was probably 2015.

[00:05:38]And then when Rob and I started up Inking Out Loud, I was like, you know, Rob, just so you know, at some point we're going to have to get around to to New Sun and put our put our big boy pants on.

[00:05:49]>> Yeah. Beautiful. Then that is, you know, put the big boy pants on. This book, uh, our book club has been going for several years now, but we've only done sort of two chunky series and a couple little books in between. uh and with both of them sort of the first series that we read, the meal Book of the Fallen by Stephen Ericson, uh was recommended to to Jeff Canata or Jeff Kannata found it through the recommendation of like, hey, this is like a challenging series to get through.

[00:06:16]>> Yeah.

[00:06:16]>> And then while we were reading that, I started hearing about uh anytime I would mention what we were reading, somebody would inevitably say, "Have you read Shadow of the Torah by Gene Wolf?"

[00:06:28]Because if you are enjoying a challenging read, if you're enjoying putting on the big boy pants to read a book, baby, you got to get in here. And so the entire time in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, I think I know what our next series should be. I think I know what's going to let us sink our teeth into it. Before you picked it up, what were your pre-impressions of the book? Did your friend who was saying you got to check this out get sort of seated as like this is hard stuff or what do you remember what your life was in those moments before taking it on?

[00:07:01]>> You know he he did tell me that it was very literary but he didn't really push the challenge >> aspect so much. Uh, I I think just because of our conversations, he he kind of knew that I I appreciate the more literary side of of fantasy and science fiction.

[00:07:25]And it it definitely is literary and it definitely was challenging for a variety of reasons. I think a lot of people get really intimidated by the vocabulary.

[00:07:39]>> Mhm.

[00:07:40]>> But to me, that's not even the the real challenge of it. It's it's like the layers of narrative. Um cuz a lot of the time, yeah, they're big words. There are a lot of words that I have no clue what they mean. And but but Wolf is such a good writer that you could pretty much pick it up from context almost all the time, I feel like.

[00:08:03]>> Yeah. And if if you can't, you can still sort of gloss over it as this is an alien word for an alien world. Um, speaking of, did you guys read the the note on the translation at the end?

[00:08:17]>> Oh, the appendix.

[00:08:18]>> The appendix.

[00:08:20]Yeah, it's it's one of our favorite parts of the book and it is I completely, you know, recontextualizes everything you've read and it's just like whoa, he's, >> you know, talking about this like it's, you know, like it's a place you can actually visit and and, you know, talk to people who have artifacts from that world. Such a cool framing.

[00:08:39]>> Yeah.

[00:08:40]>> Yeah. It's one of those things that makes it him feel so >> clever and it's that it's kind of like the author's note, >> but because it is also a fiction and setting this this fantasy sci-fi world in space, it is I feel like it's one little additional peak through to the author because it's from him about what it is, but I see to his heart and like the creativity there about what he's doing where I think sci-fi and even like the gravitas of this world of like he's a torturer and how kind of dark that can be and serious it can feel. It feels like a lightness with like a little wink at the end of it from Gene Wolf from like what a cool thing. Sorry I interrupted you to say that.

[00:09:25]>> No, that's you kind of said exactly what I was going for that it was almost a joke at the end of the book where you get through this really like heavy intense experience and then he's like yeah but you know haha And yeah, it does. It kind of changes the tone and especially like the the the final lines, you know, this is not an easy journey, reader. You know, I don't know if you're going to be able to hang on with me.

[00:09:52]>> And then and then you get Wolf inserting himself with a a little wink and a nod.

[00:09:57]>> Yeah.

[00:09:58]>> Yeah.

[00:09:58]>> Yeah. He becomes a character in the universe. It's is pretty neat. Uh, I've I've heard that there are some editions where that that appendix is not um presented until after the second book, which is so interesting to me because um I think reading it, you know, obviously Shadow of the Torer, by the way, spoilers, full spoilers for Shadow of the Torture, but um Shadow of the Torture ends very abruptly. You know, it's like, okay, well, I'm going to take a little break now.

[00:10:31]uh just you know BT dubs be right back.

[00:10:34]Um and then that you have that appendix and um I had read that you know sometimes they place that after the second book and I think having that context you know sort of midway through this this work which I had also heard I don't know if you've heard this I had heard that um splitting it into two book two volumes it was originally one book the claw the consiliator and shadow the torturer were originally one book and his publisher was like no we're splitting this thing in half and then so he added that like Well, I'm going to take a break here at the gates thing.

[00:11:06]Um, >> yeah. So, it was originally all four were one book.

[00:11:12]>> Oh, really? Oh, wow.

[00:11:13]>> And and yeah, he decided for for various publishing related reasons to make it a trilogy and then it became four books.

[00:11:24]And when you get to the fourth book, uh there is there is a sequence in it that was added that he wrote kind of post hawk. Uh that is personally I love the sequence and a lot of a lot of readers do but there are some readers who are like this is super out of the blue. Um and it was essentially he wrote it as padding >> uh to make the fourth book the same length as the other three.

[00:11:50]>> Oh interesting.

[00:11:51]>> Yeah. There's there it was is quite an interesting publishing journey for this this series.

[00:11:56]>> Yeah. And and the the the book itself, I mean, it's going to be hard for us, I guess, talking a little bit about what is, I guess, the first quarter of that work as all we've read so far. Um, and we're going to try to stay away from spoilers for subsequent stuff. But even in that first even in just Shadow of the Torturer, the book feels very at least to my mind feels very disjointed in a lot of ways. You know, you have the first section which is this very sort of focused kind of coming of age uh young kid thrust out of the nest, you know, pushed into the the wider world. And that it feels very almost very conventional, very um relatable in in other works that I've read. You know, it's it's not out of the ordinary to have, you know, this alien world, this young apprentice who's then, you know, does something that causes them to have to leave and go out into, you know, have an adventure out into the world. That's pretty conventional sci-fi fantasy fair.

[00:12:57]>> Yeah. But then the book just transitions into this kind of wild episodic, you know, strange characters moving into his orbit and out of his orbit and we have dream sequences and like it's such a strange I think structure even for that first book. Is it something that struck you as well?

[00:13:16]>> Definitely. Yeah. Like we have more or less the the first half of the book is his childhood there. It covers a a relatively long span of time and basically from the moment that he slips the knife to the >> Yeah.

[00:13:38]>> The rest of the book suddenly like hits the brakes and it's what is it three four days?

[00:13:45]>> Yeah. Yeah. The first part is like years and then we're into days. Yeah, you're right. Good point. And each day has sort of a a defining feature to it, you know, as he goes out into the city into Nessus overnight. Uh, you know, solo experiencing what it's like to be a torturer amongst the populace and seeing the various uh attitudes that people have toward torturers. And then, yeah, he has the dream. He falls asleep next to Baldanders. He meets Baldanders and Dr. Taos. and then the whole uh ridiculous adventure with Aia and Dorcas and then the duel and the >> and then the play and >> and then you meet uh Jonas at the end and >> it it just it's like this uh this almost contradictory feeling where the speed of the book slows down so much in terms of chronology, But the pace picks up so much. It's >> Yeah, the pace unusual.

[00:14:53]>> The pace picks up so much. I >> I realize that if you were just like, "Well, how much time is passing?" I could identify that easily. But I didn't think about it because it is such a And then this happened. It's like your baby's craziest day out where there's so many little bits and bobs that it feels like it's going and going and going, but it's slower than the rest. I've never actually put the fact that that is like so at odds with what the rest of the book is. Well said.

[00:15:21]>> And it's it becomes so surreal too. I mean even in the context of of you know being a torturer which is odd to our mind and it's an alien world and it's all these you know strange things but it it feels very uh grounded in a certain sense. It's grounded in its alieness but it's grounded and then the book just detaches. It seems so dreamlike and surreal in that, you know, second half where, you know, we're he's challenged to a duel to the death. Okay, I guess I'm doing this now. You know, and then just meandering like you got to go find the flower to fight. Okay. You know, he's just kind of like falling into these things and even by the end when it's like, oh, there's a play going on.

[00:16:02]Come join it. Okay.

[00:16:05]It's it's so um it's it it just has such a different tone and feel in the second half.

[00:16:11]Yeah. Yeah. And and like you said, there's this super colorful cast of characters who come in and out of the story. Uh it it starts feeling like uh they're they're sort of like oneoff, like oh, they just like pop in and pop out. You know, he >> he wakes up next to Baldanders and has this breakfast with Dr. Taos and and then he just leaves them and he's like, "Yeah, I'm not going back to them."

[00:16:37]>> Right.

[00:16:38]>> Yeah.

[00:16:39]And then, you know, 10, 12 chapters later, he just stumbles over the play and he's like, "Ah, all right. I I guess I'll do the play."

[00:16:47]>> Yeah. It's happening already.

[00:16:49]>> That's my line.

[00:16:50]>> Yeah. It's It's happening. We're in it.

[00:16:52]Let's go. It's like And Dr. Taylor is just like, "This is exactly what we expected to happen. Here we go." It's just so It's so so strange when you Sorry. Go ahead, Anna.

[00:17:01]>> I was going to say, and and even Dr. Talis, he he has his mysterious air of magic. And I say magic because so much of the book has that medieval fantasy feeling despite being very sci-fi. His uh ability to do quick cosmetic surgery.

[00:17:17]His ability to have some kind of he's got some magical feeling to him that I assume could be attributed to a sci-fi device that we see offcreen. But uh even the fact that he anticipates something like this is it's surreal, but it also he has some amount where you're like, "Oh, he's like a Trixie wizard man that you >> believe is capable of having known that this would happen. It was fated or whatever it is." Uh sorry, Jeff Gannata, go ahead.

[00:17:50]>> Oh, you're muted.

[00:17:53]Am I muted?

[00:17:54]>> No, I think Jeff's muted.

[00:17:56]>> Okay.

[00:17:56]>> I'm sorry. I'm muted. Pardon me. Um, I have a capacitive thing and if I bump it, it mutes me. Anyway, okay. The uh I'm curious for Drew, what um when you first, you know, if you can recall when you first started reading it, were were you immediately drawn into the story? Is it is it a book that you immediately took to or is it one that was a slower burn for you?

[00:18:19]>> Uh, no. I was not actually drawn in immediately. I I picked up Shadow of the Torturer and I got probably around to the Feast of St. Catherine >> M >> and I just kind of put the book down. I I never took it off my, you know, my bedstand, but I was like, h I need to I need to let this sit for a little while.

[00:18:46]This isn't what I was expecting.

[00:18:49]and and I I kind of told myself, I I'll read a couple other books and then come back to it. And I was I don't even remember what the other book that I picked up was, but I was less than halfway into that one. And Shadow just never got out of the back of my head, never stopped, you know, tapping on the on the window, so to speak, and I went back and picked it up. And from that point, I was just utterly gripped and and ripped through the rest of them. H interesting. It was uh what would you say is the one of the things that you anticipated the least about the book but then you ended up enjoying the most?

[00:19:28]>> That is a great question.

[00:19:33]>> I did not anticipate the sci-fi elements.

[00:19:36]>> Uh I my friend had just told me you need to read Gene Wolf because you're a fantasy enjoyer.

[00:19:45]And like you said, especially at the start, it has all the trappings of fantasy, the the language on the opening page, you know, a gate to the necropolis. And >> yeah, there are some sci-fi things in there, like the he sees the the ship fly overhead, but he doesn't know what it is, and he doesn't explain it really.

[00:20:08]And yeah, one of Votilus' men has a laser gun, but he doesn't know what it is and doesn't explain it in those terms. So, you're like, you know, and but the guards in the necropolis have pikes and there there's so much about it that just comes off like traditional fantasy. And that was part of the reason why I didn't get into it immediately. I was expecting more and I wasn't picking up on it, >> which is on me as I'm trying to remember the the quote, but there was a really funny one. May have been the Rereading Wolf podcast or it may have been somebody on the Gene Wolf subreddit, but uh it was something like if if you have a problem with a Ganwolf story, it's almost always reader error, not author error.

[00:21:00]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:21:02]>> And I'm like, "Yeah, it was definitely reader error." Uh, in my experience, >> we had that with me, too. That that is accurate for me as well.

[00:21:10]>> Yeah. Big time.

[00:21:12]>> Yeah. So, I uh but once I picked up on the the fantasy elements or or the sci-fi elements buried among the fantasy elements, that that was my first indication of the depth. And that was really just the first indication of the death because the book is so much more than that.

[00:21:34]>> I love how he, as you explained, how he describes things from Searian's point of view being sort of clueless about the high-tech sci-fi side of it. And you know, one of my favorite moments in in uh Shadow of the Torture is when he sees the painting.

[00:21:54]>> Yes. of what is clearly a spaceman, you know, but he's like he's got this crazy armor and this, you know, domed helmet that's reflecting the sunlight, you know, it's it's really uh >> standing in a desert.

[00:22:05]>> Yeah. Yeah. So cool.

[00:22:08]>> There's so many little bits. I almost wish that I I wish this every time we read, but I have sort of a a weird thing in my head where I'm like, I'm not going to take any notes and I'm just going to try and remember stuff. And even as we're talking, there's so many interesting little things that happen >> uh that it's hard to I was like, "Oh, yeah, that Spaceman detail was so cool, but it's like falling out of my brain."

[00:22:31]And that happens with like characters and moments. And uh one of the things that fell out of my head until there's a big gap in what felt like time, but in the book now I'm realizing was less time. Votalist, bro.

[00:22:46]>> Yeah. immediately presented as this massively important figure, but his name falls out of the narrative as quickly as it entered. It feels like it's like we forget about it with Searian while all this other stuff is happening. And then when Searian's like sees something, he goes, "Oh, Votilus." I'm like, "Oh, yeah, Votilus." It's like I feel like we're both forgetting and then remembering him in the same time. I have feel like I have a like a tin foil hat that I associate with my maleen days and my board of red yarn of like who he is, what it could be, and like trying to see the future. And was everything that happened that he encountered already just severian's insanity or it's tough because I feel like there's going to be so much there's the potential for there to be so much votalis into the future, but if you can like cut your mind off at Shadow of the Torer.

[00:23:37]>> Yeah. uh the votalist journey. What do you sort of make of the the something of such extreme importance falling out even through right at the end of the book?

[00:23:47]>> This is uh actually one of my favorite bits of this book. Uh one of my favorite lines of literature of all time that is the we believe that we invent symbols.

[00:24:01]The truth is that they invent us. We are their creatures shaped by their hard defining edges. Uh that uh that is what Searian says upon receiving the coin from >> Vogalus.

[00:24:20]>> And he talks about how um soldiers in the Otx army are given a coin upon conscription and and this coin takes on such meaning to them in their role as a soldier. And Searian assigns this meaning or he thinks he assigns this meaning to the coin that Votilus gave him. And and throughout the book he refers to himself as a Votilari even though he has no idea who Votilus is or what he wants or you know anything that's going on with the conflict around Votilus. And in turn, because Searian wants to uh uh wants to assign this meaning in in actuality, Searian's life is getting shaped in ways that he doesn't realize because he doesn't know what the deal is with Botto. He just had this youthful enthusiasm and was easily impressionable on this one night of his life.

[00:25:18]>> Yeah, it is. I think so much of at least this novel. I I have no idea if it carries forward, but so much of this novel can be explained by his youthfulness and his immaturity. You know, he's like a guy who just just this young kid who, you know, he's like, I want to have a cause a cause to believe it. Oh, a lady to fall in love with. Oh, another lady to fall in love with. You know, he just feels like this this little boy who, you know, he's a huge man. He's a huge person, >> but nearly seven feet tall.

[00:25:52]>> Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, ultimately like completely immature to the to the world and I certainly relate to that, you know, the memory of being that age and or at least that, you know, that level of maturity. And you have those impulsive, brash, you know, stup frankly stupid things that you do. There's so many things that he does that are just straight up stupid, you know, like not a smart thing to do. But I relate to it, you know, it's very um understandable as as you know, a big dumb boy, you know.

[00:26:28]>> Yeah. In fact, this this brings me unfortunately I didn't have time to uh watch through all of your your episodes on it. So, I'm I'm curious if >> you guys talked about the um the potential around the order for the excruciation.

[00:26:47]Uh there is some debate among wolf readers whether Searian forged those orders out of a fit of peak or whether they were actual orders.

[00:26:59]>> Interesting. there uh there there is a a theory that he felt scorned by her when she called him a a boy essentially >> because a lot of the early part of this book is >> sort of defined by Searian trying to find markers for this is when I became a man >> and then two chapters later this is when I became a man and this is when I became a man. you know, he he has the the threshold of becoming a journeyman in the guild. He has the threshold of losing his virginity. He has the threshold of leaving the citadel. You know, there are all of these moments.

[00:27:37]>> And so, he does get angry when Theela kind of refers to him as a boy.

[00:27:43]>> And it's just after that that he goes up to uh >> was it Master Polyon's office and finds the order for her excruciation. And there is some theory that he didn't find it. He's lying here and he forged the order. Oh, >> I don't know if I necessarily buy into it, but but on the idea of him being this brash, dumb kid >> that would fit that he did something without really thinking through the consequences and then felt the guilt afterward, slipped her the knife, and then this cascading sequence of events results in him being banished from the cinema. I could see that because what one of the the things that I have talked my husband read the books. He's the one who was one one of the many people to be like you've got to read these things.

[00:28:33]Yeah.

[00:28:34]>> Uh and he for so long is like Savian's such a jerk. Oh my gosh, he's such a little jerk. Blah blah blah. And when I was reading it, my first impression was that well he's an idiot and he's like a young dumb kid but he's like a jerk because of that. So even this debate of like, oh, did he force this or did he find it? Being like, oh, you think I'm just a boy. I went to the desk and it's would you I just knew it. There was orders for you to die now. That's so crazy. Like that is Searian is a sociopathic jerk. But there's so many other things where he's stumbling through and he's like willing to believe that Aia is a nice lady that he's in love with and not immediately getting scammed. That it's like pure pure naivveness that >> I I don't know. I don't I feel like my personal opinion now is that he is a jerk. Like kids are jerks. But the primary factor is naive. So I wrote is is searian unreliable because he's a jerk. Is he unreliable because he's naive? Or is he unreliable because he actually is insane? Or is his insanity puberty?

[00:29:43]>> Because honestly, same. I want same.

[00:29:47]>> Yeah. Right.

[00:29:48]>> Who who among us? Uh >> I I am less inclined to believe that that theory uh just bec and maybe you guys can disagree with this but just you know hearing it for the first time now and and trying to reckon with it for the first time now I >> I I feel like since the since the novel is written by older Searian right and he tends to be very honest about his own failings throughout out, you know, like in retrospect, he he tends to be very um I I I would it doesn't seem to be in in uh in league with his sort of uh openness and honesty about all the other things he did wrong. You know, like we we have all these moments of the older searian breaking the fourth wall and being like, >> you know, I don't know why I did that or I don't even know why I'm telling you this or I don't, you know, I feel like there's a a level of honesty there that wouldn't be so, you know, dissembling about or, you know, hiding something that big. But maybe maybe I don't know.

[00:31:00]>> Yeah. I mean the the extent of his dishonesty is I mean it is another just source of debate because >> you know the book starts off with him stating categorically I have a perfect memory.

[00:31:14]>> Yes.

[00:31:15]>> And then a close reading of the text makes it really clear that he's either lying about having a perfect memory or he's lying about events that occurred to him.

[00:31:24]>> Yeah.

[00:31:24]>> Such a good point. Yeah.

[00:31:26]>> There are discrepancies. There are moments when he's like, "Oh, I got lost.

[00:31:31]I I couldn't retrace my steps, you know, or I I've never done this before." When it's like, "You just did that three chapters ago, you know, >> right?"

[00:31:40]>> And and that really forces us as readers to challenge the text and and come to our own conclusions because this isn't something that the text gives us an easy answer for.

[00:31:54]>> Yeah, such a good point. We we we constantly were saying that as we were reading it, you know, saying he he literally told us he has a perfect memory and then he's like, I don't know.

[00:32:03]I didn't remember that guy until he said that thing and it's like what? Yeah.

[00:32:07]>> It's I do have a perfect memory. It's just sometimes my per my perfect memory like takes a while to like rev up, you know, when I like meet.

[00:32:15]>> That's just called memory, bro. That's just what memory normal memory.

[00:32:18]>> We're all like that, dude.

[00:32:21]like, "Oh, yeah, that thing reminded me of this thing that I had totally forgotten about."

[00:32:25]>> Yeah. The thing that I I love so much about it is is the fact that it is this ambiguous and maybe I'm just uh too Yeah.

[00:32:34]>> melodramatic, but I in my brain I'm like, it would be so great to see like a little one scene side by side where you like do tonal differences, same text, different actions happening on the stage. It feels like I'm just I'm just daydreaming now. But it's it's so it feels so nice on my brain. Part of the reason I think this is I mean so very in the way that he tells the story, his obvious failings in being able to tell the story, but also some of the ambiguity with like what what is that? What does that word mean?

[00:33:05]What is this? Sci-fi and fantasy books frequently have a bunch of jargon that's like specific to these aliens or fantastical worlds. Do you think there's something unique about Wolf's use of this archaic language that makes people bounce off of these novels more readily because they feel dumb like they should know it or something? Or do you think that this is the same kind of problem that sci-fi and fantasy books like haters of them generally feel anyway?

[00:33:31]But we just hear about it a lot with this one because the book is so highly praised. I I do think there's a subconscious issue where people feel dumb. Uh that the words are familiar enough that that somewhere deep down your brain is saying like I should know this. I should understand this but I don't. And that can build frustration.

[00:33:57]I like I do think it's I I I can't categorically state that it's unique because I don't know if any other authors have done something like this where they're uh uh what is it that Wolf says? Uh I may have had recourse to invented terms, but in no case have I done so.

[00:34:16]>> So good.

[00:34:19]>> Just what a way with words. Yeah. Uh but but it it does stand out in the greater sci-fi fantasy cannon that Wolf is not coming up with fantastical terminology that he's going into the the deep lexicon and and finding crazy archaic root words. And to me that provides uh a very similitude to the to the books. It it helps reinforce the world building. Uh there's another one of my favorite passages actually. Uh let me pull it up real quick here. It's when he's describing Dr. Taos's appearance for the first time, >> which there's so much going on in this one paragraph, but he he talks about uh I have heard those who dig for their livelihood say there's no land anywhere in which they can trench without turning up the shards of the past. No matter where the spade turns the soil, it uncovers broken pavements and corroding metal. And scholars write that the kind of sand that artists call polychrome because flexcks of every color are mixed with its whiteness is actually not sand at all, but the glass of the past now pounded to powder by eons of tumbling in the clamorous sea. If there are layers of reality beneath the reality we see, even as there are layers of history beneath the ground we walk upon, you know, and so he he is doing multiple things in this passage, but one of them is building the world and building the the history and the archaeology and the uh the language because this plays into why he's using these archaic terms to describe this world. It's it's a a forward and back >> juxiposition that makes it so much richer to me.

[00:36:20]>> Yeah.

[00:36:21]>> Wow. Beautifully said. Yeah, that is so true. And it it it is you're right. It is both at the same time. And he he is unearthing those, you know, that multiplicity of colors that have been buried. and he's he as an author is is extracting them and plucking them and manipulating them and and revealing them to us. Uh but they they they were just buried below the surface. It's it's it's such a great point, >> man. Um do you think >> this is why reading Gene Wolf is amazing, but also it makes me feel like I'm a terrible writer.

[00:36:59]>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's standing in the the shadow of greatness and you're just like, what? How does anybody even do that? Um the same thing we had with Erikson. uh the the uh do you think that it I have this sense and maybe it's just my own subjective reality because I was in this position um that this work is not uh cited as often as others that seem to be like the people that know it love it or the people that know it really know it but it's not you know it's not brought up alongside Dune and Lord of the Rings and you know like the other sort pillars of the genres. Do you think that is why that it it feels a little more prickly to readers or is there some other reason? Do you think I >> I I think that's exactly the reason.

[00:37:49]It's >> it's not easy. I mean, not that especially with modern, you know, 2020s, 2010s fantasy sensibilities, not that Lord of the Rings or Dune are particularly easy reads, but this really is in in a different league. And but at the same time, like you said, this is one of the pillars. You know, if you talk to if you talk to these modern authors, very often they'll say, "Oh, I love Gene Wolf."

[00:38:21]>> Yeah. you know, the the Book of the New Sun is is foundational to sci-fi and fantasy, but it never had the mainstream popularity that, you know, even stuff like Conan or Elrich or, you know, the Belgiad, other other classic fantasy and and sci-fi series of the mid 20th century had. So, it has this sort of outsized shadow over the genre where the people who know it tend to be the people who know it, if that makes sense.

[00:38:58]>> Yeah.

[00:38:59]>> Yeah. Isn't that Ursula Gwyn's um quote that he's our Melville? Yeah.

[00:39:06]>> I love that. That's such a great line.

[00:39:08]Yeah.

[00:39:09]>> Yeah. And you know like Neil Gaiman uh who is not on Vogue anymore but he you for a long time he was the darling of of mainstream fantasy and he was Gene Wolf's protege. I don't know if you guys know this, but Gene Wolf sort of took him under his wing and >> uh he was a a mentor for Gaiman and Gaiman >> frequently talked about him and said you at one point he said I think Gene Wolf is the greatest living writer of the English language >> but the but Wol's books aren't commercially marketable because they are so challenging and it doesn't help that his best known work the book of the new son is maybe his most challenging work.

[00:39:51]Yeah.

[00:39:52]>> So like >> it's it's a conundrum.

[00:39:57]>> I feel like the challenge of it too, you know, it is in like the the language and you know the things that end up feeling like jargony but are are not. But I also feel like in books like this if somebody's like oh they have like this amazing pros that sometimes it it's hard to get through but at least it's like point A to point B and at the end I'm like I followed the adventurers. there's like something that's easier for people to pick up on. But especially after Searian leaves the Citadel, we get into what the only other time I've really felt it like this was in like the Fafford and Grey Mouser books where it's just kind of like we're meandering, baby. stuff is happening and it's just like event event event and they're connected in the sense that he's like with Eggy and going to the thing and like the duel is this sort of impending piece but there's so many disparate events that happen along the way that don't feel related and just feels like you know I keep saying like just baby's day out just having a wacky time >> almost like Alice in Wonderland you know >> yeah it's so many of the things that Searian and Aia do are nonsensical.

[00:41:09]You're like, he goes into the the the Botanic Gardens and we have the the sand room and you're like, "What just happened?"

[00:41:19]>> Right?

[00:41:19]>> And then they go to the jungle room and like, "What just happened?"

[00:41:24]>> And then they go to the the um you know the lake and you're like, "What? What just happened?" Yeah, >> but even >> you go to gohead >> the duel and you guys even talked about it on on your last episode where Searian describes the duel and then afterward people are telling you what happened.

[00:41:41]You're like, "Wait, that's not what Searian thought it happened, >> right?

[00:41:44]>> Straightening dog."

[00:41:47]>> Yeah. He um uh immediately when he leaves he like runs into or he has this you know sleep with bald danders and then the next day being like oh doctor tells us here there's a body on the corner that he loots and they're like anyway don't think any harder about what happened there don't think about this day to the city it's just like the first thing that he does on his day with actually like encountering society versus just walking and observing it is like they loot they loot corpse on the street. So many little things that >> even how he starts the novel which is like I'm going to start here because this feels symbolic of something but then literally the next chapter is okay that but before that >> we did this >> you know it's it it all feels very um >> you know it it puts the reader kind of on your heels a little bit because you're >> you're reeling through uh through all of it. I mean, I found it very pleasurable that that sense of disorientation often, but uh I can understand why, you know, other folks maybe bounce off of it. Uh but I mean, the language just the language alone is so pleasurable and like the sequences that you've read and you know, we always read stuff at the end of our shows too. It >> it just like just just luxuriating in those sentences that just aren't like anybody else.

[00:43:15]>> Yeah. I it's he was a master of the language. I I mean >> I've I've read a lot of authors with beautiful pros, but for for my money, nobody quite hits that Gene Wolf level.

[00:43:31]>> Yeah.

[00:43:31]>> I I also I've never seen anybody use parentheticals like he does.

[00:43:35]>> Yes. I love a parenthetical, you Uh, and for those listening, the listeners, not me, the listeners who don't know what a parenthetical is offhand, that is >> Oh, with we literally using parenthesis like a sentence then it has parenthesis >> and we all knew that.

[00:43:55]>> Okay. Okay. I I I have to bring this up because it is hysterical. This is my my go-to. Um it it's from his book peace which is another extremely challenging book. Uh but part of the reason it's challenging I'm going to read this sentence. This is one sentence.

[00:44:18]Now when I sit alone before my fire and look out at the wreck of the elm revealed by the lightning flashes confused and ruinous as a ship gone a ground. It seems to me that the garden, I mean little Joe's garden, basking forever in the sunshine of its terraneian afternoon, is the core and root of the real world to which all this America is only a miniature in a locket in a forgotten drawer. And this thought reminds me and is reinforced by the memory of Dante's paradiso in which because the wisdom of this world was the folly of the next, the earth stood physically central, surrounded by the limbbus of the moon and all the other spheres greater and greater and at last by God, but in which this physical reality was in the end delusive, God standing central in spiritual truth, and our poor earth cast out, peripheral to the concerns of heaven, save when the memory of it waked, was something Not unlike an impure nostalgia, the great saints and the Christ from the contemplation of triune God.

[00:45:17]>> Wow.

[00:45:18]>> That is one sentence with >> boom.

[00:45:21]>> Three literal parentheticals with parenthesis and several other aides parentheticals in the mechanical sense using m dashes and commas. And it it's the he he has these sentences at in Peace and in Book of the News Hunt that are like 150 170 words long. Like >> it's hard to keep track of what he's saying because there's so many nested parentheticals. You're like, "Wait, which which thing which metaphor is referring to which element of the sentence?" And it's ludicrous. the level of formality and familiarity with writing techniques you have to have to be able to write that for it to hit so um familiarly and casually in a way because I think that's how I talk my brain's like yeah I get it I'll talk but once I'll back it to here and then I'll say this because this but then going to my previous sentence which >> which additional context over here like that is how my brain functions and so even though there is such a like artistry on display. I'm like, "Yeah, I also have neurons fire." And take me over here for a second.

[00:46:33]>> I I think you know the it is complex. It is it does use archaic language. It does, you know, there there are these these incredible uh blockbuster sentences and yet I found it very readable. I I did not do Do you have uh Drew, do you have a >> a a go-to way that you pitch this series to potential readers? Have you had you know recommended it in a specific way to people?

[00:47:01]>> Uh yeah. So I I always say this is the peak of literary SFF. Uh if if I know that somebody is uh one sec I have to >> Are we going to meet the boy here?

[00:47:15]cameo.

[00:47:16]>> Oh, >> blacker than black, baby. There he is.

[00:47:20]>> The man.

[00:47:21]>> He let himself into the office again.

[00:47:23]Um, but yeah, I uh I am very selective with recommending this this series, I think, for obvious reasons. Uh but it is usually if I see somebody talking about books in a certain way where they are engaging with the text in a in a thoughtful and active manner, I'll say maybe maybe check out Gene Wolf, you know, and if I see somebody overtly asking for really literary stuff, like one of the common things I'll see in online forums is, you know, I've I've never been a fantasy reader, but I love lit literary fiction. What should I try? You know, or I love Cormarmac McCarthy. What should I try? Oh, Gene Wolf, he's your guy. Uh >> and but but sometimes, you know, I like tossing in uh Book of the New Son for >> for somebody that I think needs to take a step up. Like I I have a couple of friends who are huge Brandon Sanderson fans.

[00:48:24]>> And you know, I'm a Brandon Sanderson fan. I'm a beta reader for Brandon Sanderson for heaven's sake. I'm I'm not going to dump on Sanderson, but Sanderson is a different kind of fantasy from Wolf. And if I see a reader who I think is like kind of coasting, I'm like, you're you're ready for something different. And I'll I'll say, check out something a little more literary.

[00:48:45]>> I like that. I like that. Encouraging people to try >> things that would be outside of their comfort zone. And I think that's one of the great joys of having this. And I'm I'm sure you found it just in general through your podcast as well, but being able to to have a discussion point or have a sort of ringing out and the vulnerability that comes with even being like, I don't understand what this was.

[00:49:10]Like being able to jam it out with someone and knowing that reading can doesn't have to be a lonely act. It can be this great sharing and a greater delight of language and story and imagination and creativity that I feel like these the tough stuff that makes you stop and be like what does he mean by that? Let me just sit back and imagine what he means by the metal isn't metal. It's something like metal. Like what does he what does this appendix now do to everything that I just experienced? There's such a a juicy, delicious brain joy in pulling that apart. So, I really like that as the maybe you're ready for something harder, baby.

[00:49:50]>> Yeah. Yeah, that was beautifully put. Uh I I completely agree that part of the act of reading is the act of learning.

[00:49:59]And if you're only reading things that don't teach you anything, you're missing out on part of what can make the experience of reading so wonderful.

[00:50:10]>> Couldn't have said it better. I I mean, I think that's kind of our mission statement here a a little bit. I mean, our show started as, you know, let's let's do what everybody says is the hardest uh fantasy series of all time.

[00:50:25]Let's do Malassin. And um and I think that we you know we we are open to doing things that are a little easy breezier.

[00:50:33]We did uh a long way to a um >> small angry angry planet. Yeah. Which is you know couldn't be farther from that.

[00:50:41]Right. She's it's easy breezy. feels that you know people call it um our people who recommended to us called it cozy and I think it's a great apt description >> and you you know those reads are wonderful too in their own way but there is something when >> you are forced to slow down and really think about what you're what's being delivered there and how it's being delivered that I find to be so intensely pleasurable.

[00:51:09]Yeah, >> there's something. Oh, go ahead, Drew.

[00:51:12]Sorry.

[00:51:13]>> No, I I I I just like it it brings me back to um again Neil Gaiman. Uh he he had a an old article that was just called how to read Gene Wolf.

[00:51:27]>> And it's it's a really great short little piece. Uh but he has these like nine elements of how to read Gene Wolf.

[00:51:34]And one of them is be willing to learn.

[00:51:37]>> Yeah. Yeah.

[00:51:39]>> Yeah.

[00:51:39]>> And hey, great way to go through life.

[00:51:41]Maybe also.

[00:51:45]>> Yeah.

[00:51:46]>> Might be good advice.

[00:51:47]>> One of the things that came up with this book is I feel like any like purist kind of person that has read them and been like this is perfection. A lot of times that is paired with or I've heard it's you have to reread it or you haven't read it. What uh what do you think about the reread? Obviously, there is something joyous and interesting and there's so many layers to get to that you you'd never be able to pierce that veil on the first reread, but do you what do you think about saying you don't know it until you read it again?

[00:52:25]So, I I push back on that a little bit.

[00:52:29]There is a fun story to The Book of the New Sun that like if you read The Book of the New Sun once, you get a fun story. You get something that is is going to push you a bit. It it is going to uh excite you. It's going to, you know, make you laugh. It might make you cry. It might, you know, it's not that there's this totally impenetrable barrier that can only be where the story can only be grasped the second time through, but there is depth to it. Uh so one of Wol's guiding principles uh during his life was his idea of what makes good literature and that and that was uh a a book or a story which can be read with enjoyment and reread with increasing enjoyment.

[00:53:23]>> So it's not that it can only be reread with enjoyment. You have to start from that foundational >> story of yes, people are going to pick this up and have a good time with it.

[00:53:36]And then hopefully great literature is going to stick with them after that first good experience and say, "Hey, come back. There's more."

[00:53:47]>> So well said. Yeah, I I agree. I agree.

[00:53:50]I'm having a great time on a first read and I can already tell though, you know, there's going to be uh interesting things that are going to recontextualize what I've already read later.

[00:53:59]>> Um, so much fun. How do you guys decide what to read next for uh Inking Out Loud?

[00:54:05]>> Oo. Uh, so nowadays it's pretty much me.

[00:54:10]Uh, so Rob, my my original co-host, he he went off and got a job fixing airplanes for the Royal Canadian Air Force.

[00:54:18]>> Oh, wow.

[00:54:20]Little little Mounty. Little mechanical Mounty.

[00:54:24]>> Yeah, >> my people.

[00:54:26]>> So, he doesn't uh he doesn't do episodes as often anymore. Um when he he's getting married this summer, so hopefully after things settle down a bit, I'll be able to get him back because we have only done Shadow of the Torturer.

[00:54:39]>> Uh I've read, you know, I've I've read all of it, but Rob has only read the first book, so I want to get back to doing the rest of it. But in the meantime, it's pretty much me and then I bring on a few other guests. And I I try to do a combination of things I've read before and things that are new to me.

[00:55:00]Like right now I'm doing um uh The Monarchies of God by Paul Kernney, which I had never read before.

[00:55:07]It's a an epic fantasy series that started out in the mid '9s. very uh very similar vibes to A Song of Ice and Fire to Game of Thrones. And I I've been enjoying the heck out of that. Been reading those with my wife. And then uh I've been rereading Garrett Pi by Glenn Cook with uh another author um where he's reading them for the first time, but I've read them once before. So, like I like having that balance of I have something that I can speak to with a little more authority and then something that I'm going through with fresh eyes and learning as I go and and I get to be wrong and, you know, make crazy predictions and and you know, have people laugh at me.

[00:55:50]>> Um, >> that's basically our whole show.

[00:55:51]>> That's that's my that's my whole thing.

[00:55:56]Yeah, it's uh uh when but when Rob is around uh we kind of we would go back and forth where like he picks one series, I pick one series and and go through that way. And uh that's how we end up with like uh we covered the Dresden Files, which I probably wouldn't have done uh were were it not for Rob.

[00:56:19]Uh, and then we also have a Patreon and and like top tier Patreon supporters can force us to read something.

[00:56:26]>> So, yeah. Uh, which >> we we were forced to read Ready Player One and Ready Player 2, which I did not enjoy.

[00:56:34]>> Yeah. I I I pieced out of Ready Player 2. I I read all of Ready Player One and, you know, when it was Linda Zeitgeist and whatever.

[00:56:42]>> I've only seen the movie and I only saw it within the last couple months. Let me tell you, I didn't enjoy that either.

[00:56:49]>> Yeah.

[00:56:50]>> Huge storm is in the thing and I still was like anyway.

[00:56:54]>> Yeah. So, yeah, we we've uh we've had some some hit or miss, but like another Patreon supporter had us read The Divine Cities by Robert Jackson Bennett.

[00:57:03]Amazing trilogy. Uh, one of the best things I've read in the last 10 years.

[00:57:08]So, >> I love Robert Jackson.

[00:57:09]>> Sometimes it works out.

[00:57:10]>> Beautiful.

[00:57:11]>> Very cool. Well, Len, do you have a do you have a last question for Drew as we uh kind of wrap up here?

[00:57:17]>> Just a quick favorite moment. I I would put favorite moment, least favorite moment. I I don't really have any like least favorite moments. And I assume that you don't either, but what do you what are the bangers? What are like the things that just when you think about it, you like list out say I love this egg yet, the the botanic gardens, etc. What's your fave bits of the first book?

[00:57:40]>> Yeah. Uh so the the dream uh the night he sleeps in the same bed as Bald Anders and then the meeting with Dr. Tailos the next morning. Uh Wolf's description of Dr. Taos is one of my favorite passages in all of literature.

[00:57:56]Uh and then the the Botanic Gardens are so trippy.

[00:58:02]>> Yeah.

[00:58:02]>> Uh and and there's so much going on. Uh that was one section that on reread really like blossomed in my estimation where the first time went through I was just like I'm lost.

[00:58:18]This is crazy. And then the second time through I was like oh that that and that and >> and this and like and it was just mindblowing.

[00:58:28]So those those are probably the two that that stand out the most to me.

[00:58:32]>> Appropriate place for your imagination to blossom.

[00:58:35]>> Okay.

[00:58:38]Indeed.

[00:58:40]Uh, >> yeah, >> Drew McCaffrey, what a delight having you on the show. Thank you. It proved to be absolutely the perfect person to come on and and talk about this book with us.

[00:58:50]We really really appreciate you being here. Thank you.

[00:58:54]>> Yeah, thank you. This is this is a great time.

[00:58:56]>> Awesome. Uh, tell folks uh where they can, you know, keep up with you and the cool stuff you do. Plug your books, you know, tell tell folks where they can u find more.

[00:59:05]Yeah. So, of course, uh I host the Inking Out Loud podcast. We do all kinds of sci-fi and fantasy book reviews, book club style discussions. Uh but we we kind of look at things from a little more of a writer's perspective. We dig into writing style and structure and thematic elements. So, uh that's a lot of fun if you're interested in that kind of thing. And then my own fiction you can find, you know, on ebook pretty much wherever. I'm I'm dealing with iBooks right now uh with a couple of my there's some like weird rights stuff that I'm fighting through, but uh Kindle, you know, Nook, uh all the usual things. Um that I have a series of short stories that all take place across the history of an empire. And I should have another one coming out in June, so keep your eyes peeled for that.

[00:59:57]>> Right on.

[00:59:57]>> Yeah.

[00:59:58]>> Very cool. Uh thanks again for for being with us, folks. Thank you for watching.

[01:00:03]Uh we're going to dive into Claw of the Consiliator next week. Uh the uh reading guide is on the Discord. We're going to do the first eight chapters for our first episode. Uh but you can find the whole reading guide going to our Discord, which is 5x5 DLC or excuse me, yeah, 5x5 DLC on Discord and the uh book club section there. Uh thanks folks.

[01:00:27]We'll see you next week.

[01:00:29]Keep dancing.